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Post by D33P on Dec 22, 2014 21:59:33 GMT -5
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Malachi
FTL
Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.
Posts: 177
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Post by Malachi on Dec 22, 2014 22:10:36 GMT -5
I personally found the video to be pretty creepy. Idk why she thought that having a computer talk for her was gonna show how 'sincere' she was. I don't see how an 'apology' vid helps with her appeal, especially since she already said she wasn't sorry.
I believe she deserved the ban, even if it is extensive. She was already banned when she played in Ladle. Why would she chance playing in Ladle when banned? It was only 1 month, how hard is it to just live without Ladle for a month?
She doesn't take the rules of the competition seriously, and from what I've heard she's a jerk.
But that's irrelevant, the point here is that she was playing while banned and so the ban was extended. I do, however think the ban may have been a little bit harsh. I think it went from 1-12 months in order to make an example out of her, and anybody else who might plan to do what she did. I think she is the first to ever elude the ban, (not sure if anyone else in ladle history has ever been banned) so she had to be dealt with.
I also don't like the overall attitude of some of the people posting on the main tron forum. Some people think our opinions invalid since we haven't played Fort or Ladle for a good amount of time. But I believe we still have a say in this. Like Durf said, we are the only growth happening in Ladle so far. I hope this liz person is be dealt with, she could've had a chance at a shorter ban length if her apology video meant anything.
Her actions have already spoken for her, so let us take action against her. Let the ban stand.
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Smurf
FTL
"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house." - Malachi 3:10
Posts: 222
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Post by Smurf on Dec 22, 2014 22:22:04 GMT -5
Ye, do you see liz/vogue/vein 's saying?
She's the hero Armagetron deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hate on her. Because she can take it. Because she's not our hero. She's a silent ladle participant, a watchful alias. A dark grinder.
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Smurf
FTL
"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house." - Malachi 3:10
Posts: 222
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Post by Smurf on Dec 22, 2014 22:22:32 GMT -5
Also, apparently a girl >.>. Apparently magi thinks she should play in ladle o.o
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rad
FTL
Posts: 46
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Post by rad on Dec 22, 2014 23:01:29 GMT -5
As an exercise, write down the words in the apology video on a sheet of paper/type in word processor.
I'm not sure if I transcribed the last part of it correctly, but anyone should be able to see that this is not a sincere apology. But regardless, we can still accept the apology...
...However, in my view the Ladle competitions should be considered a privilege, not a right. I know I don't have much say in this, but the Ladle has rules specified on the Armagetron Wiki, and obviously there should be consequences that go with not following those rules. If the individual under trial is allowed to participate before the full length of the ban is met, then we would really be showing how the Ladle's integrity can be compromised. If I read correctly a 12-month ban was given; to lessen that term would be to show a weakness of our community. We shouldn't allow Armagetron to be bullied so easily.
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Post by Durf on Dec 23, 2014 0:39:33 GMT -5
I agree rad. I'm upset at how everyone doesn't see what really matters.
Accepting her apology is easy to do and, assuming she means it, we should accept it and expect better behavior from now on. But accepting an apology doesn't mean lifting a ban (it doesn't even mean shortening it)
If she was truly sorry for what she did (and she understood what she did was wrong) then she would accept the ban in full without question.
Which is where an appeal process is usually used to address the nature of the ban itself, not the conditions that would take place should the ban be lifted. Like I said on the thread, a bribe has no place in a ban appeal.
Not to mention that she posted (early post) that she was NOT SORRY for what she did. So how does this video make sense?
... So I wholeheartedly agree with you rad. Ladle's integrity is in danger of being compromised, however, I still have an open mind that an appeal process is deserved by anyone who feels they deserve it (much like a criminal being released early on the basis that they endured cruel and unusual punishment; in vogue's case, she doesn't seem like the ban was all that cruel)
You should post that rad...and why not? Sure we may be new to the ladle scene, but that's more reason to listen to what we have to say since WE are the growth of ladle (currently). You opinion has more logic and articulated thought in it than a majority of the posts in the actual thread. Don't be afraid to express yourself on the main arma forums (cus even if you make a mistake, you can always make a half-assed apology video to make it all better)
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Post by D33P on Dec 23, 2014 21:21:42 GMT -5
Some thoughts on this, that I might later consolidate and post on the arma forums: 1. Something that Durf touched on in one of his posts on the forum, but people seem to be forgetting, is the precedent that this sets. If they decide to overturn her ban because she's funny or will supposedly make Ladle more competitive, future potential cheaters will look back on this, and come to the conclusion that the community doesn't care about the rules. What tron will be like with or without her banned is irrelevant to the judicial process. If potential cheaters see that the community chose to ignore due process and reinstate her based on her skill level, they will proceed to cheat, knowing that as long as they are good at fort and can be funny, they can get by any consequences resulting from their cheating. 2. She did NOT give an apology, not even an insincere one. What she gave, was a joke that was meant to win over supporters through humor. An insincere apology would have been serious, as the purpose of an insincere apology is to perform the same function as a real apology, which is to show remorse for ones actions. While an insincere apology might be easily detectable, the person giving the insincere apology does not intend for you to think that they are being insincere, as that would defeat the whole purpose of even trying to apologize. Vogue, on the other hand, clearly wanted us to think of everything she was saying was bullshit and was insincere, which means she wasn't even trying to apologize at all, and based on the positive response from everyone after the video was posted, was trying to gain supporters through humor. 3. She has no basis for an appeal. Ignoring her consistent childish remarks regarding her appeal, there are only certain things that, in real courts, you can appeal for. First of all, she must be appealing a sentence, as if she was trying to appeal the verdict, she has fucked herself over by admitting to the crime(s) and citing the prosecutions evidence as correct. Within appeals for a sentence, there are 3 things you can argue made the sentence unreasonable. The sentence is excessive, given your background and the circumstances of the offence; the sentence is illegal; or an error in a principle of sentencing resulted in an unreasonable sentence. The sentence was not illegal, as she was banned for 12 months, which was allowed under the system of punishment at that time. Given that there has never been a case like this before, her sentence cannot be circumstantially excessive as there is no similar crime and sentence to compare it to. And lastly, there was no error of principal. Errors of principal include ignoring or excessive emphasis on: the denunciation (public criticism) of the unlawful conduct, deterrence to the offender and to others of a similar mind, protection of the public, rehabilitation of the offender, and reparation (make amends) for harm done to victims or to the community while promoting a sense of responsibility in offenders. If she were to try and argue any one of these, she would need clear evidence, such as a comment from one of the judges saying that they violated one of the principals, or a study, specific to Tron, on how certain lengths of Ladle bans affect cheating. Assuming she doesn't have any evidence like this, she has no basis for an appeal of any kind according to irl courts. Source for the appeal info: www.courtofappealbc.ca/appeal-your-sentence-guidebook/1.2-reasons-for-appealing-your-sentence
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Post by Toast on Dec 24, 2014 17:10:52 GMT -5
Possible retort for d33p: You say that the video is a joke and insincere, but how can one tell? There are some jokes in it but there can also be a real apology in there. Since court cases require proof, you can't really prove that the video was meant to be a joke.
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Post by D33P on Dec 24, 2014 17:30:26 GMT -5
So I told Snxp that I was pro-ban, and here are some of the things he said: - My logic is automatically invalid because I haven't been playing in Ladle for years
- Vogue has done so much for the community in the past by building winning teams
- Vogue personally taught him several techniques that he uses to this day
- Vogue's personality is misunderstood
He definitely emphasized how I literally have no say in the conversation simple because I haven't been playing in Ladle for years. And a ridiculous amount of personal bias is clearly present by how he described vogue personally teaching him how to play, and not even admitting this bias. Logical fallacies present in his argument: - anecdotal evidence - vogue teaching him personally does not mean she contributed overall positively to the community
- ad hominem - logic is never automatically invalid because of who the person is/what they have done
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Post by Durf on Dec 24, 2014 19:03:22 GMT -5
t33P, clearly he is a supporter of Vogue. So it stands to reason that he would do the same as the rest: completely ignore #1 of your second post (this thread). Every one of the points listed as part of his argument has NOTHING to do with the appeal itself. All that seems to matter to them is everything besides what makes an appeal, an appeal. I strongly suggest you post what you have said (if you haven't already). If your conversation with snxp was public, then publicly point out how his discriminating attitude is doing worse for new teams joining ladle than helping it. If it was a PM, who gives a shit and post the content on the main thread for everyone to see. Problems like that need to be solved if ladle is going to be free of the jerks that will ruin it. Basically he needs to see how blind he is; and if there is something public for me to comment on I probably will. I hope he isn't toesn't become a parent. The pattern of discrimination would continue and his kids would have horrible lives never being heard (their opinion is too young to matter). The fact that people are talking about ladle dying, and he chooses to remain close minded about the opinions of a new team is sickening...it's like he wants it to die. Toast, assuming the apology was sincere and genuine: "Every human makes mistakes. Sometimes I do as well. Barely. Now I've tried to find it within myself to present to you a totally honest and sincere apology." "I hope you find it within yourselves to forgive me, because I'm, like, totally sorry. I want to thank the people who support me because, like, it's cool. Like, really cool. This was all I could say. Admitting one's mistake is a tough journey through the "spirital" mind law social justice warrior's political incoherencies pane out as life." Assuming she meant to say those things in an attempt for a genuine apology, it's pitiful. Someone that has the capability of choosing their words carefully enough to have their apology be funny can also avoid the use of the word "like" to be more sincere. However, we can safely assume it's insincere because since the negative feedback of the video, she has felt no remorse (for her past deeds, or the video being insincere). You're also forgetting that she admitted to her crimes and also admitted that she wasn't sorry. Do you really think that someone like that would suddenly feel genuine remorse after a few posts about her? Really, toast, the entire thing reeks of someone that has the capability to do things properly but chose not to for shits and giggles (this is probably where we 'misunderstand' her personality). Usually I'm all for giving people the benefit of the doubt, but this is too much of the trouble-making attitude to doubt that she isn't sorry. (nobody talks like that while they feel remorse; it's the realization of the fault one created that generates remorse...) We don't need evidence of it being insincere; there is no evidence that she is sincere.
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